Craig Mazin says he knows what you’re thinking: “The Chernobyl and The Last of Us guy wrote a broad comedy mystery about talking farm animals? OK.” Well, Mazin’s comedy roots run deep. Also, we contain multitudes.

The Sheep Detectives, Mazin’s adaptation of Leonie Swann’s Three Bags Full, has been a passion project of his for the better part of two decades. And now that results are finally out in theaters — the feature includes an impressive cast on-camera (Hugh Jackman, Emma Thompson, Hong Chau) and voicing sheep (Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Brett Goldstein, Regina Hall) — he seems a little nostalgic. “I feel like this is the one where I finally figured it out,” he says.

During a recent episode of The Hollywood Reporter podcast I’m Having an Episode (Spotify, Amazon Music, Apple), Mazin spoke about taking inspiration from Babe, script doctoring, his love of competence porn and why he believes the upcoming third season of The Last of Us will have its viewers reexamining their previous takes on the show.  

You wrote the original The Sheep Detectives script 10 years ago. How much does a project change in a decade? And are there points where you think, “Why am I still working on this?”

This one took, weirdly, even longer. I first got the book from our producer, Lindsay Doran, 19 years ago. It took her nine to unwind the rights. Then set it up at a studio and I wrote a script about 10 years ago. That script is basically the movie. I’ve done a little bit of revising, not much. But the studio was like, “This isn’t just a purely goofy movie. There’s like there’s a lot more going on here. And we’re not really sure we want to be in that business.”

Almost a decade later, someone did.

Courtenay Valenti, who is now running [Amazon] MGM, always loved it, always thought there was something valuable to the idea of a family movie that seemed like a silly talking animal movie and turns out to be much more moving. She bought it from the other studio and it went from just sort of sitting there to releasing it with the most amazing cast I think I’ll ever be associated with.

The Craig Mazin who wrote this was still very much known for writing comedy. With Chernobyl and The Last of Us, you’ve really pivoted to the death and murder guy.

Why must I go to extremes? Actually, this is the thing that came in between. I was starting to segue from one genre to another. It is funny now to talk to people where they’re like, “I don’t understand how the Chernobyl and The Last of Us guy could do this.” You know, the very first thing I ever did 30 years ago was a children’s movie [Rocket Man] at Disney. I think I’ve written in every genre. And, obviously, there’s a lot of things I write that my name is not on. But this movie is probably the nearest and dearest to my heart, because I feel like this is the one where I finally figured it out.

You have a reputation for being a really strong script doctor. So there are many, many films you’ve worked on that don’t have your name on them. Can you demystify that a bit for me, because a big part of your career has been done in the dark?

You know that there have been projects over time where a studio has gone through 30 different writers and no one, especially the studios, wants to see “written by” and then 30 names. It looks bad. It’s not good for us either. There’s a reason that we limit the credits. Most of the time when I’m doing these kinds of jobs, it’s to either help something get a green light… or it has gotten a green light and then a movie star or producer says, “Let’s bring in somebody to just help with the first act or fix this character or do a thing. I don’t do it with any expectation of credit and I quite typically don’t ask for it. They pay you pretty well and you get to work with some great people. They’re like one-night stands, creatively.

From what I’ve read and heard, you wanted to cast as wide of a net as possible with this movie. How do you do that?

Our goal was always Babe, which is what I would call the last realist talking animal movie that was special — that wasn’t just, you know, talking animals. And that’s what we aimed to do. And I remember the Babe was so surprising. I saw a Babe in the theaters and I was in my 20s.

We all did. It’s kind of wild how big Babe was.

We all saw a Babe, because we heard it was special. When they talk about, “Who’s this movie for? What’s the audience for this film?” I think the audience for Babe is humans. The audience that we were aiming for is humans. And it is interesting that, yes, death-and-despair Craig wrote this. But do you remember who wrote Babe? George Miller. Mad Max George Miller. Sometimes, you gotta go to that guy for a talking animal movie.

The book you’ve adapted this from, Three Bags Full, has such a fantastic title. I understand why that was not chosen for the film, but can you talk to me about the naming discussion?

It’s always Three Bags Full to me. Every script I wrote, the title page said Three Bags Full. When it was time to actually put the movie out there in the world, these titles are very frequently changed by studios. Marketing, specifically, has a lot to weigh in on that. And I don’t mind. On one hand, it’s a very silly title. On the other hand, it tells you exactly what the movie’s about — which is helpful!

What are some tropes you see in movies and TV that you’d love a moratorium on?

I’d love a moratorium on the whole idea of tropes. (Laughs.) Here’s a trope: vampires. There’s a point, like, “My God, how many things about vampires have there been?” Then Sinners came along, and they’re vampires, but it’s not about vampires. I make a show about zombies. It’s not about zombies. As long as there’s something honest underneath it all, I’m open to anything. Like, I love John Wick. What John Wick does beautifully is something I call competence porn. We just love watching people who are awesome at what they do. And they do it in ways that other people have not.

What are some other good examples of competence porn?

The entire Jason Bourne film series is confidence porn. Maybe the best screenplay I’ve ever seen on screen is Unforgiven. The entire movie, people just keep talking about how Clint Eastwood’s character, William Munny, was the most incredible murderer the West has ever seen. He’s just an old broken-down guy who doesn’t seem very good at anything, gets his ass kicked, gets a fever, almost dies. Then, at the very end, he rides into town and does it. That is its own kind of release.

You famously told David Benioff and Dan Weiss, upon seeing the original unaired pilot for Game of Thrones, that they had a “massive problem.” And everyone is aware that the version we got is an almost completely different episode of television. When in your career has someone said something like that to you?

I say it to myself constantly. I have this thing where I want to run toward bad news. I think it’s because I come out of comedy. And comedy is brutal because the audience will tell you with their silence, you have a massive problem. You become like firemen running into burning buildings rather than sort of celebrating what you have. In drama, you can theoretically sit in an audience and say, “I’ve made this beautiful work of art and it is my expression. And if these people don’t get it, it’s their fault, it’s not mine.” In comedy, no one gives a damn. You have to embrace the crucible of feedback.

I’m paraphrasing, but you’ve said something to the effect that critics never really get comedies. Why do you think there is a greater divide?

Well, to start with, critics don’t give comedy its due. And it is the hardest thing to do. Best picture at the Academy Awards should only be comedies as far as I’m concerned. It’s just understood that best picture of the year goes to something very serious. That’s that. It’s so much harder to write Scary Movie 3 than it is to write Chernobyl. And I know this from personal experience. (Laughs.) I also think people get into film criticism because of their love of comedy.

You cater to two different audiences with The Last of Us: people with this deep relationship with the video game and others, like me, who watched the first episode and assumed “Oh, I’m signing up to watch a five-season series with my friends, Bella Ramsey and Pedro Pascal.” That’s not what they’re getting. So does your awareness of those two camps impact the writing and execution of a season like the one that’s coming up and focuses on Kaitlyn Dever?

Well, it wasn’t like season two wasn’t a departure. We knew what we were doing there, and what I love about that story is that you are denied your heroes and you’re denied your villains. What you are forced to reconcile with is that the people that you care about and root for are not good all the time. It is a question of perspective and narrative. It’s a very powerful thing to be given a story that gives you a hero and that makes your side good. That is fundamental to most religions — and it is fundamental to most politics now. It creates a tribalism. It’s “us versus them,” and it happens very, very quickly. What I loved about the story of the game, which is in line with what I am pursuing on the show, is that it is not that simple.

The answer to conflict, tribalism and to the alienation of one group from another, you can say empathy. But going about showing empathy is hard, especially when you’re talking about empathizing with somebody who has hurt you personally, taken something from you, caused you grief. There’s a reasonable argument to be made that you should not be extending a hand to somebody who has hurt you or hurt somebody you love. And easier said than done. So this is about exploring that. What I know that we have is Kaitlyn Dever. She is the kind of actor that you find yourself aligning with and rooting for almost instantly.

Speaking of tribalism, a very funny trivia fact about you is that your freshman year roommate in college was Ted Cruz. I only bring this up because, when those catastrophic storms were happening in Texas and he left for Cancun, one of the headlines was “Ted Cruz Invited His College Roommate to Mexico Trip He Blamed on His Daughters.” My instant reaction was, “Maybe I don’t know Craig Mazin as well as I thought I did…”

It wasn’t me! Different guy. And I know who that was. I’m so glad you said “freshman year roommate,” as in… I got assigned. I didn’t pick this guy. I just got a little form in the mail that said, “Your roommate’s going to be Rafael Edward Cruz. I was very excited until I met him. And then I wasn’t. Hey, there’s a guy that unites everyone. Everyone hates him — Republicans, Democrats. Everyone agrees he stinks.

I was very fortunate with my freshman year assignment, but I do believe having to live with randos ultimately makes you a higher-functioning adult.

Because I’m old, I like the phrase “character building.” And it does build character. You can survive these things. I survived Ted Cruz for a year. If I could do that, I can do anything.